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A Defense of Grad School

February 2nd, 2010 by Andrew Swenson in career, life

Last month, a few other young professionals, namely Nicole Crimaldi, Matt Cheuvront, and (to some extent) Shane Mac suggested that the best education is self-education.

As one who loves a good debate, and as someone who’s always been sympathetic to the side of traditional education, I decided to interview Cali Harris (@caligater) who recently quit her job to pursue her Masters full-time. She’s the real deal. The video interview and a recap (with my 2 cents thrown in) are below:

[If you can't see the video, click to visit]

Grad School can lead you down a path you didn’t know existed

Cali started in cultural studies, but stumbled upon a few social entrepreneurship classes, and found that she really wants to be a social entrepreneur.

Sure, this type of thing can happen while you’re working, but extra school gives you a lab of sorts to experiment and stumble all day every day—something that is partially hindered if you’re holding down a 9-5 and trying to figure out what you want to do with life on the side.

Sometimes it’s a matter of personal priorities

Cali quit her job to give 100% to grad school.

I can’t tell you how many people I know who have tried to straddle both grad school and a full-time job. They usually fall into one of three categories: (1) the crazy people who excel at both, (2) the people who are obviously favoring one or the other, or (3) the people who start to suck at both.

At least from my experience, the majority of people I know fall into that third category.

So what’s the value in graduate school?

Why shell out an insane amount of money of a piece of paper?

The value for Cali is the process. Learning to maneuver your way through graduate school is similar to maneuvering your way through a corporation, or a startup.

Earning your graduate degree, says Cali, is not about a line on your resume. She feels that she’s gained insight and skills she didn’t have before to start something perhaps bigger, and perhaps more informed.

There’s something to be said about those who can start and build something without a formal education, but there are some instances in which a formal education helps teach you how to think more than anything. This comes not just from reading and conversing, but from people who are actively challenging you in your pursuit of knolwedge.

Grad school also teaches you how to play the game. In school, in corporations, in your client relationships, there will always be a fair share of politicing. If there’s one group that worships at the altar of inter-organizational politics, it’s higher ed. This is an invaluable experience.

Would you add anything?

I’ll admit this post talks more about the benefits of graduate school than it attacks the deficits of self-education.

So in the spirit of thinking about the positive, what other good things do you see about a graduate education?

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  • Yay, Cali :) I saw your face and got excited.

    Andrew, this is a great idea for a blog post and really keeps the conversation going. I especially like that you interviewed via video. I only have my Bachelors, but I often think about Grad School. I'm not sure where I stand, but I definitely believe in Grad School I just want to see if it's important for me and what I need. Thanks for the insight, both of you!
  • Thanks for the kind words Grace. I'm not sure what I want to do about grad school either...but this conversation (meaning the one that's been going on across several blogs) has really helped me in thinking through the issue.

    This I think is a testament to the people like Matt and Nicole to start a conversation and really help people.

    Thanks again for stopping by.
  • In my opinion, if you’re pursuing a graduate degree because you’re motivated, hungry for knowledge and committed to making an effort, you’re going to receive a return on your investment.

    As Matt pointed out, if you’re just going to grad school to burn up some time and are unwilling to work hard, then you’re wasting a lot of money that won’t get you anywhere.

    Another element of the value of a graduate degree – what subject is on that diploma when you complete your coursework. Is it actually applicable to your professional and personal objectives? Will it give you the tools and knowledge to achieve your goals? If not, then don’t waste your time.

    Andrew, I agree with you that grad school is not a necessity, but rather a stepping stone to achieve a goal that may be just out of reach. Cali is obviously pursuing a graduate degree for passion and learning. I did the same after feeling unrewarded and limited with my job at the time. For those skills and knowledge I wasn't able to gain in the workplace, I made up for it with the work I did for my masters degree. Emphasis on the word "work," because it took a lot of that. Putting those combined skills into practice, I'm now an entrepreneur and couldn't be more pleased with the path I took to get here.
  • Thanks for sharing Rach.

    My fear about grad school is that I'll start thinking I want to study one thing and find out (like I did in my undergrad) perhaps a little too late that I'm not in love with that subject area. This of course would be a huge waste of time and money.

    So the grad school issue for me is a big hairy ball of unknowns...if I should go, what I should study, where I should go, and so on.

    When you were working, did it just become apparent to you what you needed to do about grad school, or had it been in your head for a while?
  • Andrew,

    That is absolutely a valid concern! Have you narrowed down the types of programs you might be interested in? I believe many schools lists the course requirements for degree programs on their site - maybe dig through those a bit to find topics that stand out to you. If something looks interesting I bet the student services office would be able to send you a syllabus to peruse. Though this would take up a great deal of your time, if you're seriously thinking about going back to school this might expose you to options you may not have considered. I would definitely recommend not committing until you’re ready!

    I had my sights on the particular degree I wanted (MS IMC) since undergrad but hadn't planned on going to get it for several years. I thought working full time would be enough of a challenge that grad school would be the farthest thing from my mind. Despite an intensive training program through my company (that I loved), I but felt as though to be the best marketer I could be I needed to broaden my knowledge and really challenge myself intellectually. Not necessarily an “ah-ha” moment, more of a realization that to really excel I needed to do something to differentiate myself and break away from the pack. I couldn't get that at work, but wanted to continue learning through an actual profession, so I attended grad school part-time. In the evenings after work I had class and would spend my weekends studying and doing group projects. It was tough, but my husband was very supportive as he was doing the same thing at the time at another university in the area (we lived in Chicago at the time, so there were plenty of schools!). So much of what I learned in grad school was applicable to my job, but I never would have acquired those skills if I kept chugging along at the office.

    Hope that's helpful! I (obviously) have a lot to say based on my experience :)
  • Thanks for your help Rach!

    For me it's really down to an MA (and eventually PhD) in Rhetorical studies or an MBA, so I guess the problem isn't knowing what I'm interested in, it's that I'm interested in two things that have somewhat divergent paths.

    I know there may be some middle ground, but I feel something pulling at me to choose between a life of business (MBA) or a life of reading and research (PhD). It's tough because I love both, and because I probably can't do both.

    Luckily I have a very supportive wife, too (who happens to be finishing her grad degree right now).

    So for now I'm just sitting tight and waiting...with all those questions in my head. :)
  • As a new reader of your blog and since I recently started grad school myself, I love this post! I commented over on Cheuvront's blog about it, totally supporting the idea of grad school, and found myself in the minority.

    My quick thoughts: I'm in grad school because it's a personal choice. It's totally not for everyone. Think about your goals, and what industry you're in. Take a long time to think it over before you make the decision (and before you spend tons of money studying for/taking the GRE/GMAT and applying to schools). I want to earn a Master's degree because I love the classroom, I love learning. I didn't always feel that way, but I found myself missing it a few years after graduating. I'm doing it to supplement what I do at my office. I know I'm not going to learn everything there is to know in my office, and I know I'm not going to learn everything there is to know about my industry in school, but I like to know that I get both, and they challenge me in different ways. And yes, I'm working full time while attending school part-time. Since I just started, it's hard to tell which group I'll end up in. So far I'm handling both pretty well, but with sacrifice-- it helps not to have cable, and I'm soo far behind in my Google Reader it's insane. But those are the sacrifices you make.

    I also don't know where I will want to be 10 years from now. Will I want to be a professor? Perhaps. Maybe I'd like to run for office. Who knows. The other night I had a dream I decided to go to law school-- maybe that will be my dream someday (though I highly doubt it). The point is, I don't know, but I want the skills that I learn in school to go with me on my journey.
  • It seems that we can't boil this graduate school decision down to a simple bit of logic. Each point of view is different and intimately personal. Thanks for sharing yours.

    I'm thinking about joining the ranks of the insane (by that I mean holding a full time job and taking classes), so please let me know how things turn out.

    I don't know were I will want to be 10 years from now either. I think it's important to set goals, but it's also important to enjoy the experience of now. After all, you've only got one life to live.

    Thanks for joining in Catherine.
  • Good stuff you guys - I'd love to chat with both of you via Skype soon, FYI. Cali and I discussed this a bit when I wrote my post a couple weeks ago - but the bottom line is, as long as you are doing what you know is best for you - that's what matters most. The overall point behind my post was that I see so many people going back to school to escape the real world or postpone getting a "grown up job" - when you're using higher level education as a cop out, something's wrong. Cali, you clearly do not fit into this bracket, but I think we are in agreement that a lot of people go because they think they "have to".

    Great, great interview you guys. Both of you are people I really admire in this space. Cheers!
  • Matt, I'd love to hit you up on Skype soon. I'm wordpost there.

    And like you, I've seen quite a few people go back to school to escape "grown up jobs." I think once again this post turned into less of a pulling apart of the argument for self-education and more of a statement of difference.

    Reading your perspective (and the gazillion comments afterward) gave me some perspective into this whole issue, but for me, it was finally getting to talk to Cali that solidified what exactly the business/life grad school experience is like.

    So I owe you, Nicole, and Shane thanks for stretching my head and preventing me from taking anything for granted.

    Thanks for stopping by Matt.
  • Hey Cali & Andrew,

    Thanks for sharing this interview. Cali, I really like how you said that the difference between undergrad and grad school is the opportunity to "make it your own" and really navigate through it, politicizing or otherwise, according to your own goals and ambitions.

    I, too, went to grad school and came out with a very unique degree for an industry that doesn't require one (ever heard of a masters in book publishing?). The beauty about the program I went through was it was literally a lab in the biz--our classes were project-based, working on "real" book projects vs. theory. Plus our formal education was enhanced by the student-run publishing company housed within the program. I rolled into grad school straight after undergrad and used the extra year to grow up on a personal level and figure out where I wanted to fit into the industry in a semi-safe and experimental environment. I got way more out of my time in the grad program than I did during my 4-years of undergrad--more relationships, connections, experience, and plain ol' confidence in myself.

    I think that the grad-school-or-self-education debate is a powerful one and it all depends on who you are and if you know what you want to get out of either. Cali, it sounds like you're exactly where you should be. And good thinking about going 100% full time! I spread myself way too thin and fell in Andrew's #3 category...it wasn't pretty.

    Thanks, again, for sharing!
  • Laura,

    Thanks so much for your response. I think your story is really interesting, and yes, mainly because I didn't know that you could get a masters in book publishing, and that your classes were hands-on.

    I know all about that third category because I often have a problem saying no (and thus I spread myself far too thin at times). It never is pretty.

    But we live and learn right?
  • You live and hope to learn.

    And, alumni fail, here's the link to the book publishing program, offering MA's and MS's in Writing: http://ooligan.pdx.edu/

    Still open to talking about book publishing, if you are!
  • To answer your question: I have been talking to my brother who has been debating going back to school or not. My piece of advice runs parallel to that of the interview:

    To me it is the process, not the factoids and lectures, that truly shape your future. It is not "what you learn" so much as learning "how to learn" in a way that can be easily replicated in an external environment. The most important think I learned in college was how to continue learning into the future.

    I commend @calligater for making the commitment to continue education. Great interview.
  • Thanks Jason. I'll answer your comment with yet another question...

    Do you think that the set of grad experiences would benefit you on your path as an entrepreneur?
  • Grad school also opens certain doors that self-education does not. These include:

    Internships - many internships are only available to students.

    Career services - if you move out of the area of you undergraduate school, having access to a career services in your area can provide openings that you can't find elsewhere.

    Alma mater - similar to the career services argument, having gone to the same school as the interviewer can be an ice breaker and a "in."

    Money - certain occupations have a certain pay structure that rewards further education. Teachers, and federal gov't jobs come to mind. You will earn more to start, and over your career lifetime, than if you didn't pursue post-graduate education.
  • Edward,

    You offer an excellent list of those things that grad school brings to anyone on a traditional career path.

    I wonder though, do all these things go out the window if we want to start a business and live an "untemplated" (to borrow a term from http://untemplater.com ) lifestyle?

    That's where I'm tripping up. If I want to rise in a corp, then I think I should go bet my masters, but if I want to start my own gig, I'm not sure I need it.

    Thanks for commenting!
  • Andrew - Thank you SO much for the opportunity to start a discussion. It's 10:30a (my time!) on the morning you posted this and there are already substantive, thoughtful comments.

    What I see in the comments so far, as well as in the discussions I continually have with friends, family and peers, is that grad school (or a start-up, or a "traditional" corporate job, or world travel, or...) has to be right for the individual. Of course, we don't always initially know what's the best fit for us...and like in Jenny's experience, for example, sometimes it takes trying a path (or two) before settling into a "best fit."

    @Nicole - Oh, you! :) "Thirsty for knowledge" is spot on. I like the space that formal education creates to learn, bounce ideas off other people, be taught by others. Of course, those three things happen in MANY other industries and fields. I just happen to like the smell of new textbooks. ;)

    @abbyannette - 'Tis not an easy decision. I forewent going to a school I reeeeally wanted to attend (Berkeley -- most expensive public institution in the states! ugh) to earn a master's that was much more affordable (University of Colorado Denver -- lower-cost, fantastic program). Seriously -- I wish you all the best in figuring out your next step. I have a sense you will make a good move, though, since you're already doing a "gut-check" and weighing it out.

    @Srinivas - We need to chat. :) "It's what you do with them [grad school opportunities] that matters" -- YES! Yes, yes, yes. That's precisely why I'm not interested in a line on my resume. I'm getting a Master of Social Sciences. What is that, you ask? Yeah--exactly. It's underwater basket-weaving, as far as most people are concerned. But for me, that's no matter. I know exactly the experiences and opportunities that I'm blessed with in going through school.

    Andrew -- Thank you again for the opportunity. Also? Your summary is so eloquently written with important, nuanced points...you can just delete the video, because you said it much better than I. ;-)
  • I'm the one who should be thanking you. You are the reason this post works Cali—and the summary was really just drawn from stuff YOU said.

    I'd be honored to have you on again.
  • You did take the easy route out answering the question about me!!!! Ha, jk. Kick ass post folks! Just wait, things are bout to get huge!

    Life is politics it seems at times. I would walk around the 4th floor and talk with all of my teachers and can honestly say I had a professor call me and tell me to get my ass to class before. Life is relationships and the more we build the better we are. Don't burn bridges, build them!

    Rock on!
  • So the issue is unresolved...debt tank or launch pad?

    Maybe both.

    Maybe the debt tank is also fun while it lasts.
  • Andrew,

    I'm fortunate to be able to add quite a bit to this. I just finished an MBA. In his recent interview at untemplater Seth Godin said the value of the MBA is more or less useless if it's not from a top 4 school and you don't want to be a banker or management consultant. While there's no doubt that I could have been self educated, going to grad school, even at a lesser known MBA program has had a tremendous impact on my life. I'll just add a few below

    1) Worked as a social media MBA intern at Turbotax
    2) Lived Abroad in Brazil for 6 months
    3) Met tons of new people and expanded my network by about 200+people
    4) A lifelong connection to a network of thousands of alumni

    Each of these things in and of themselves have no tangible value. It's what you do with them that matters. Although I occasionally question my decision of getting an MBA because of the cost, I think it was the right one. I can't tell you how many of my MBA skills I've put to work in running my blog and in my working life. Great post.
  • A lot of people constantly rag on grad school and say that it doesn't get you read for the real world and also makes grads feel as if they are entitled to start at the top. So many people complain about the system of grad schools and how they give graduates false hope. They feel as if graduates come out these schools expecting to be Presidents, Vice Presidents and Senior level Execs. I don't think thats the case at all. Sure, maybe you have that one Ed Hardy wearing snot who thinks they deserve to be the head of a Fortune 500 company right after graduation but I don't think its the mentality of all grads.

    I was originally against the whole MBA program but I think that it has value in the system but it has to be used properly. You shouldn't be able to go straight from a B.Comm to an MBA program. There should be some hands on real life experience that is required before you can just hop into the program. It was originally developed to make engineers and already execs more business minded. Somewhere along the road Universities decided to chase $$$$ instead of offering a solid service to those who deserve it.

    Usually the people who put down the whole concept of getting an MBA are those who chased their dream of entrepreneurship. I'm surprised (in a good way) that you aren't in that group since you are taking your career into your own hands. I think that if you are looking to work for the government (my friend landed his dream job with the gov't after an MBA) or an already established business that taking an MBA program is almost essential if you want to compete for exec positions. However, if you want to be an entrepreneur then I say just go out and make something happen.

    With that said, I think that your comment on its own shows that Grad school does offer value to even an entrepreneur. I mean, a chance to be in Brazil for half of the year on its own is a GREAT learning experience. Not to mention the connection to the different people you met throughout the program. Like everything in life; the MBA program has its upsides and downsides. Glad it worked out for you as it did with my friend.
  • The common thread among people who have been to grad school that I've talked to (and maybe I'm reading it into this conversation to) is the value of the experience itself which translates into new situations that you could have never imagined going in.

    Thanks for stopping by and sharing your experience Srinivas. It's people like you who have the authority to speak on topics like this (which is why I interviewed Cali, someone who's actually doing it...).
  • abbyannette
    As you know Andrew, the idea of grad school is on the forefront of my mind these days. One thing I continue to try and gut-check for myself is rather I'm simply looking at grad school to escape from a situation, or whether that really is the best next step for me. Sadly, I wish someone could tell me if I'd love XYZ program, and the thousands of dollars and putting my job on hold would lead to something better than my current life-sucking situation, but no one can tell me this.

    On a similar note, I have several friends who are self-taught designers making a career out of it, and several friends who went to school for design and are making a career out of it. Sadly, they make about the same amount of money. To be self-taught, I humbly believe, requires a person of great discipline, high-intellect and passion for the subject being self-taught.

    As Jenny said, if you want to teach at a collegiate level than it is necessary. Also, you cannot become a self-taught doctor. Or lawyer. Or environmental scientist (not really...I mean maybe). You get the picture.

    Thanks for posting this.

    OH, and also. Everyone has a horror and success story, because everyone is different. Do your research, but your decision needs to be what's best for you, not what did or didn't work for someone else.
  • Regardless, I want to amply this statement, "OH, and also. Everyone has a horror and success story, because everyone is different. Do your research, but your decision needs to be what's best for you, not what did or didn't work for someone else."

    Sometimes I hate it when you comment here because you say it better than I do. :)
  • abbyannette
    Lies. But thanks.
  • You're right, I like it when you comment here.

    I think the first part of my first message was cut off. It suggested that you could teach yourself to be a doctor and make a lot of money. Tongue-in-cheek of course.
  • abbyannette
    I guess I meant lies about me saying it better than you, but whatever.

    Re MD: of course.
  • nicolecrimaldi
    What's up Andrew! Glad you did this post.

    The reasons I think it is great that Cali went back to grad school are:

    1. I love chatting w/ Cali online and reading her blog. (haha ok, that was a shout out!)
    2. Cali had a very specific career path in mind that she wanted to pursue. Also, her field is a tricky one. Especially if she didn't come from that background.
    3. Grad school is pretty much Cali's entrepreneurial venture. She put her heart and soul of pursuing her dream. This is step one of her new career path. Sometimes pursuing a new path requires going back to school.

    Cali- Kudos on choosing to focus on one thing and to do what is right for YOU.

    Overall, going back to school is an individual choice. I can relate to being thirsty for knowledge. I can also relate to wanting to switch fields completley, and today that might require an additional degree.

    Thanks for starting this discussion!
  • Nicole,

    I think you're right to focus on the individual. I'm really interested in Cali's perspective on the process—its not all about external rewards after the fact, but the experience of and during.

    I think you can have a similar experience with self-education, but it's an altogether different path, one best chosen, as you've stated, by the individual.
  • I was one of those people who tried to do both and ended up sucking at both. The situation was not the best - working in an office at my school as a secretary to get a grad degree I wasn't sure I wanted. Now, a couple years later, I'm looking at programs again. Again and again, when I have asked for advice on this matter, I get split answers. My parents, both teachers, vote for the masters. Professionals in my field (writing/journalism), usually answer along the lines of, "Are you just aching to toss out $20-40k?"

    Regardless, I am applying to creative writing programs, because it's necessary for my end goal - to teach at a university and continue to write on the side. For me, professional requirements for the degree are driving me toward formal education. I think there are a few major aspects to consider:
    1) Will learning in a more collaborative environment significantly help me?
    2) Am I willing to take out the $$ for the degree or continue to work to pay for it?
    3) Is it necessary for my profession? Or should I simply self-educate and network sans the student loans and exams?
  • Jenny,

    Thanks for stopping by!

    It looks like you've got things broken down well. And as these conversations pop up, I think the professional requirement is the primary deal breaker. As Nicole and Matt both said, if you want to be a doctor, then go to school.

    If you look at it from a strict logical perspective, it can be difficult to determine if you're ever going to see a return on that $40K you dropped. But, if you look at the experience of grad school as a luxury of sorts, not just a stepping stone, I believe it's much easier to justify the cost.

    In either case though, best to you!
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